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Author Topic: Results with Compounded Itra  (Read 3476 times)

Richard

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Results with Compounded Itra
« on: August 29, 2009, 02:09:37 PM »

I have been researching the use of compounded itraconazole (powder not beads) for use on my dog Hans and came across your site. I understand the fat solubility issue but still I have found conflicting information on the internet on the reliability of the powdered form. Some say it is equally effective while others say it is unstable and unreliable.

So I was hoping to hear the experiences from any who have tried the powdered form.

FWIW, Hans doesn't have blasto he has Chagas disease which is usually a death sentence. The recommended drugs needed to treat are only available through the CDC and they won't release them for use in dogs. So we are trying a therapy using itraconazole in combination with another drug called amiodarone which has shown promising results in some very recent clinical studies in south america. Being an large Irish Wolfhound the itraconazole dosage for Hans is 900 mg/day which is obviously extremely expensive in either brand or generic form.

So any personal experience with the compounded powdered form that you can share would be greatly appreciated.
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Kash-

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2009, 05:35:01 PM »

In 2002 my dog had Blasto.  Sporonox was only available in 100mg form, but brand name sporonox power could be purchased for compounding.  The local human hospital's pharmacy had some on hand, and they compounded it in 150mg capsules for me.  My dog was on this for about 6 months.  He beat blasto as a result of amphotericin-b + compounded sporanox therapy.

I think you'll find that most people here are fans of compounding pharmacies as most dogs don't fall naturally into the weight range that could use 100mg capsules.
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Jen

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2009, 09:37:56 PM »

   Dirtbike is a huge (literally and figuratively) success story.  She was treated for 6 months w/150 mg. powdered Itra from Pet Health Pharmacy.
   There may be some disagreement as to whether one works better than the other, but we have had no factual evidence to support either theory.  Most of the issues with both stem from the nature of the antifungals and how unreliable they can be, no matter what form is used.  Optimizing the drug availability through proper dosage, timing, maintaining stomach acids etc. is vital, and the role of supportive care is equally important, no matter which is chosen. 
   That's a huge dose you're talking about, and I'm sure the expense could grow to be outrageous.  Pet Health was extremely reasonable, and they were the only option for me financially.  I was very pleased with every aspect of their product.

Best of luck, whichever you choose-

jen
   
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Wilson3

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2009, 05:32:51 PM »

wilson did great on compound itra he was on it for 8 months and 5 of those months I got the itra from Pet health parmacy, on line.
wilson3
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Richard

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2009, 12:26:15 AM »

Thank you for the responses.

Hans has been on generic itraconazole from the pharmacy for the past two weeks ($500/week ouch!). He has shown some improvement on that. Tomorrow he starts on the compounded itra ($200/month) from a local compounding pharmacy. I'll update with how he does on the compounded itraconazole.

I have been giving him the itraconazole and then feeding him a can of food with a couple of tablespoons of butter mixed in. So I'll contine that method unless anyone has a better suggestion.
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Richard

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2009, 12:44:19 AM »

Oh, and here is a link to a pdf that describes Chagas disease in humans and dogs if anyone is interested.
http://www.cfsph.iastate.edu/Factsheets/pdfs/trypanosomiasis_american.pdf

Usually the first sign of it is heart disease but with Hans he intially had symptoms much like a fungal disease. Fever, swelling of his hind legs and lymph nodes. Luckily our vet is doing a study on Chagas disease and ran a test for it so we caught it early. He said it fairly common in the southern states but not often diagnosed by most vets since most think of it as only a south american disease so they never test for it. So it's something to keep in mind if your in the southern states and your dog gets heart disease or has symptoms that the vet can't figure out. The test for it was only $45.

And here's a pic of the blood sucking beetle called kissing bugs or assassin beetles that spread the disease.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2009, 12:50:27 AM by Richard »
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Wilson3

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2009, 08:40:12 AM »

what a nasty bug!! Thank you for the info
We have a bug that kind of looks like that ,wonder if it is it we see it more around the farms I am going to go back and re read the info and bookmark it hopfully I will never need it
keeps us posted on how things go you guys will be in my thoughts
wilson3
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dog_lover

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2009, 12:52:38 AM »

The problem with compounded (powered) itraconazole is that very little of it is actually absorbed.  There was a case study done on humans which bears this out.  It has to do with bioavailability.  It is good that you are giving food and butter with it, but I know my vet refuses to use compounded itraconazole because they lost too many dogs using it  (how many people actually read the instructions that come with a drug).  He doesn't use generics either.  He gets his brand name sporanox from Canada for less then the U.S. cost for the generic form.  He has treated hundreds of dogs for Basto over the years and is a local if not state expert on it.  I live in an area that is a hot spot for Blasto and have seen more than my share of Blasto both in dogs and humans.  I am not trying to scare you off of using compounded itraconazole, just trying to inform you of the facts.  Whether it is compounded itraconazole, generic or brand, each has its pros and cons.
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Jen

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2009, 05:22:40 AM »

It would be very interesting to see the study you speak of.  Do you have a link?
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Wilson3

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2009, 06:16:45 AM »

WOW,I would really question how good the vet is....my first thoughts are ,the vet would rather let the animal die then compound...hmmmmm what has happen to this world ...
I really find it interesting all these vets not using "compounded drugs"
Do people or these vets know the meaning of compounding?

What is compounding?

It is the manipulation of a drug to make a different drug to meet the needs of a particular patient. For example, mixing two injectable drugs is compounding.

Compounding can be performed by a veterinarian, or by a pharmacist upon receipt of a veterinarian's prescription for a particular patient. A veterinarian must have a veterinarian-client-patient relationship in order to legally prescribe or prepare a compounded product.
 
http://www.avma.org/issues/drugs/compounding/veterinary_compounding_brochure.asp
http://www.avma.org/issues/drugs/compounding/faq_compounding.asp

 
 

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Issues > Drugs > Compounding > FAQ 

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Frequently-asked questions
February 2005
Page contents: (click on section name to view)

 
What is compounding?
Why is piracy bad?
What is a bulk drug?
Does the FDA's Compliance Policy Guide (CPG) on compounding for animals disallow all compounding from bulk pharmaceutical ingredients?
What is the AVMA's position on the CPG?
Is there anything else I should know?
Where can I read the new compounding CPG for myself?
 
 

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Q:  What is compounding?
A:   Simply put, compounding is any manipulation of a drug beyond that stipulated on the drug label. Compounding should be implemented based on a licensed practitioner's prescription, to meet the medical needs of a specific patient.

Manipulation might include mixing, diluting, concentrating, flavoring, or changing a drug's dosage form to accommodate a specific patient's needs.

Examples of compounding would include:
mixing two injectable drugs;
creating an oral suspension from crushed tablets or an injectable solution;
or adding flavoring to a commercially available drug.
AVMA has summarized its thoughts on compounding in a position statement.

Compounding for non-food animals may be necessary when no approved drug exists to treat a pet's diagnosed condition or when approved drugs need to be modified to sufficiently treat the patient (e.g. flavoring, diluting, or changing the form of medications from tablet to suspension).

In contrast, compounding that circumvents the drug approval process and mass markets products that have been produced with little or no verified quality control or manufacturing standards is clearly outside the bounds of traditional compounding. Such manufacturing of unapproved drugs might be termed "piracy" if the product mimics an FDA approved animal or human drug. Veterinarians might have seen businesses that offer their version of a popular approved brand name drug at lower prices than the approved product. Such a product is not custom compounded for a particular patient upon a veterinarian's prescription and is illegal.

Veterinarians can prescribe that pharmacists compound drugs for the veterinarian's "in-office use." The veterinarian may administer such drugs to patients, but re-dispensing of these products by the veterinarian to a client is generally prohibited.

Top
Q:  Why is piracy bad?
A:   Piracy is bad for several reasons. First, it denies the patient treatment with an approved drug proven to be safe, effective, pure, potent, stable and made under FDA mandated "good manufacturing practices." Second, it exposes the patient to substances that have not been proven safe and effective and could be contaminated, sub- or super-potent, or unstable. Third, it exposes parties involved in piracy to unnecessary liability. Fourth, it undermines the incentive for research and development oriented animal pharmaceutical companies to market new animal drugs. Fifth, without a healthy animal pharmaceutical industry veterinarians will have fewer approved therapies. Sixth, it may involve preparation of drugs from bulk ingredients. These bulk ingredients often originate from developing countries that may lack a well-regulated chemical industry. These bulk ingredients may not be of the same quality as the bulk ingredients that the FDA requires a true drug manufacturer to use. Finally these bulk ingredients may come from countries where there are concerns about the real threat of bio-terrorism. And seventh, for these reasons it is illegal.

Top
Q:  What is a bulk drug?
A:   Simply put, a bulk drug is a raw drug ingredient or chemical used to create a finished dosage form.

Top
Q:  Does the FDA's Compliance Policy Guide (CPG) on compounding for animals disallow all compounding from bulk pharmaceutical ingredients?
A:   The fact is that compounding from bulk pharmaceutical ingredients for animals has been illegal for many years and continues to be illegal.

Although illegal, the FDA Center for Veterinary Medicine (CVM) acknowledges the medical need for compounding from bulk ingredients within certain areas of veterinary practice. Because of an absence of approved drugs for certain conditions, veterinarians require compounded drugs to treat conditions in a number of different species. The current CPG contains an appendix of bulk drugs that the FDA CVM has determined are needed by veterinarians and will normally not take action if those materials are compounded from bulk drugs. This is known as regulatory discretion.

What has concerned FDA is the issue of drug piracy, i.e. the mass marketing of drugs that mimic those that have been reviewed and approved by the FDA. The new FDA guide makes it clear that compounding from bulk drugs is an act that captures FDA's attention when the scope and nature of compounding raise the kinds of concerns normally associated with a drug manufacturer.

Top
Q:  What is the AVMA's position on the CPG?
A:   AVMA's Council on Biologic and Therapeutic Agents (COBTA) is in communication with the FDA on the subject of the CPG. The Council is supportive of most of the aspects of the CPG, namely that piracy is clearly denounced. The Council is however seeking ways to more clearly specify that regulatory discretion should exist for veterinarians that prescribe and pharmacists that prepare medically necessary drugs compounded from bulk ingredients for specific pets when no such approved drugs exist.

At the present time, COBTA has not recommended to the AVMA Executive Board that FDA CVM be encouraged to withdraw the CPG because there are advantages and disadvantages to this strategy. The primary advantage is that revocation may speed up necessary changes. The primary disadvantage of withdrawal is loss of the foundation for enforcement actions against recognized drug piracy.

Top
Q:  Is there anything else I should know?
A:   Yes. Federal extralabel drug use regulations specifically permit compounding from approved drugs when a veterinarian believes there is a need to alter the approved drug to adequately medicate a pet. So veterinarians that are contemplating flavoring, diluting or changing the dosage form of an approved drug are unaffected by the discussions pertaining to bulk drugs and the CPG.

Top
Q:  Where can I read the new compounding CPG for myself?
A:   Access the FDA guide at www.fda.gov/ora/compliance_ref/cpg/cpgvet/cpg608-400.html
 
 

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Jen

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2009, 06:31:16 AM »

Nice refs, thanks!
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Wilson3

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2009, 07:00:15 AM »

I to would lov eto see all these refs...

Also if Itra powder was so bad then as I sad before Wilson and many other s would be dead.
 And Wilson is stronge as ever .... I guess theses "refs" need to tell Wilson he should be dead hmmmm
DO NOT THINK SO
wilson3
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dog_lover

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2009, 11:53:09 AM »

Wilson3-  I believe I was referring to compounding the powdered form of itraconazole only, not compounding in general or compounding beaded itraconazole.  My Veterinary is one of the best I have ever seen and doesn't use the powdered form because it is not effective enough like the beaded ones.  His goal is too save as many dogs as he can.  That means using a drug which has the highest likelihood of working to cure your pet.

From the Veterinary Information Network

Concerns and Cautions

ITRACONAZOLE CAPSULES WORK BEST WHEN GIVEN WITH FOOD.

The 100 mg itraconazole capsule is an inconvenient size for most animal patients. For this reason, it is common to have a compounding pharmacy make up a prescription as either capsules or flavored liquid in a size that fits the individual patient in question. There is one important caveat regarding going through a compounding pharmacy for itraconazole, and this regards the materials the pharmacy uses to make up formulations. Compounded itraconazole can be made up from the prescription product (either brand name or genetic) or it can be made up from itraconazole available in bulk, which is usually much less costly. The bulk substance is not recommended as it is not as stable or available to the patient's body as the prescription capsules. The capsules utilize special itraconazole-coated beads that are responsible for proper absorption. The compounding pharmacy must keep the beads intact in making their formulations.
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Jen

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2009, 06:21:25 AM »

With all due respect -
   I am still of the belief that if a reader of this forum has questions about these issues, it's possible that they should be directed to a professional who can properly address them.  The information here is anecdotal.
   If one is this deeply concerned, perhaps they should not be making a treatment decision based on information from an internet forum.

jen
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gunner

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Re: Results with Compounded Itra
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2009, 11:14:23 AM »

I just wanted to let Richard know that Gunner was treated ONLY with name brand sporonax and it did beat the blasto, but not before the blasto circled back and killed her kidneys.  It was not the sporonax that destroyed her kidneys, it was the blasto, a not so comon but known secondary event in some blasto survivors. 

My vet, like "Dog_Lover's" insisted that Gunner only be treated with name brand.  I could not understand why my vet was so against compounding or even generic so I started researching. In my research and in talking at length with some top notch pharmasists the reason powdered itra does not work as well is because it was not given with enough fat to make it absorb in to the system.  All the research (I did last year, though there may be more out now), was done in humans and humans are not about to take their meds with a gob of butter.  It was all taken with water alone. 

Though at this point, I consider myself to be an arm chair "expert" on the topic, and after hundreds of hours of research, my oppinion is this: 
1) Itraconazole is the only active ingredient in name brand or compounded drugs.  Itraconazole is not water soluable, Itraconasole IS fat soluable.  The difference in effectiveness is related MOSTLY to how they are administered and what is used to make them soluable to be absorbed into the body. 
2) Name brand Sporonax (beads) was made for human consumption and humans do not want to take a pill with butter or oil so the company did it's best to address that issue by making it as water soluable as possible by binding it to pollimers (little beads vs. powder).
3) If using the powdered form, it MUST be given with fat of some sort otherwise it will not be absorbed by the body.
4) Too many people do not follow proper dosing instructions and everyone and every dog is different to come up with an absolute, one-size-fits all formula.
5) The proof is in the pudding.  Wilson3 and Dirtbike were about as far gone as a dog can get with Blasto and survived thanks to compounded, powdered itra.  Gunner and several other dogs were treated only with high dollar name brand drugs and died. 

In conclusion:  Even with all the research, I have decided that it is pretty much a crap shoot if a dog will survive.  Blasto is insidius and evil and the ammount of money you throw at it can make no difference at all.  I spent over $10,000 on a dog that didn't make it and Wilson and Dirtbike and others made it on a few hundred. 

One last thing: Those of us in this horrible predicament or who have been through it, SHALL NOT stand in judgement of those who choose because of finances or convictions to take the path of compounded or name brand.  We are all facing a horrible, terrifying disease and those that find this site are doing the absolute best they know how to save their dogs.  We need to help each other and offer the best support we can.  Finger pointers, critisizers and superior attitudes can go somewhere else.
Wishing everyone only the very best,
Joyce 
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