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[Wilson3]

so sorry I was hoping you would of had an answer ... with blasto there is no fast answer/cure

I hate to keep asking but when did you find out Lola had heartworms?
no treatment has been started? Why is your vet waiting to treat them?
Your vet doesn't think her  symptoms have anything to do with the heartworms? Lola has the classic symptoms of a bad case of them and she is positive for them just curious as to why the vet is looking for for more and not treating what is there?
wilson3

       

[Sadie123]

Lolas mom.....

Has Lola been around any mothballs?  Just something to consider.  If ingested they cause vomiting and liver problems, but if inhaled, the fumes can be very toxic.  It can cause drooling, cough, and neuroligic symptoms.  Just a thought to consider.  I remembered looking this up when Sadie was sick.  My vet asked me about possible rat poison and I didn't think that was possible, but I did call my neighbors where she spent time sniffing in their yard.  One told me they had laid out mothballs, but took them back up once they started to smell bad. 

[Sadie123]

I was just re-reading your posts from yesterday and noticed that I overlooked some questions you had specifically about the tick borne illness. 

My vet was looking specifically for one a specific tick borne illness called Ehrlichia.  Ehrlichia can cause low platelets and anemia, which can lead to internal bleeding.  Symptoms are a cough, pale mucous membranes, and sometimes nosebleeds.  He considered Sadie's chest x-ray to possibly be related due to the low platelets.  He thought that perhaps she was bleeding into her lungs and that could have been what he was seeing on her films.  It is not that common for the chest x-rays to look like that, BUT he has seen it a few times in the past.  He thought he may have seen some scattered spots that could have been micro-hemmorhaging in the lungs.  Another vet in his office said he had never seen that before (but this was a newer vet) and my vet has been practicing for over 20 yrs and said he had seen it a few times in the past.  Although rare, it could have been the cause - so he considered it and we drew the tick panel a few days later.  The tick titers test for several illnesses at the same time, so the cost $150-175 was worth it.  Her titers were negative for Ehrlichia, but positive for Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.  Treatment for both tick-borne illness is an antibiotic called Doxycycline.  Within 2-3 days of treatment you would see a major turn-around for the better.  So when I started Sadie on the Prednisone and she seemed better, my vet thought it may be the Doxy that made her better.  But when I started weaning, she started getting worse again and that made me doubt the tick illness.  And she stayed on Doxy until the end.  Treatment is several weeks, maybe up to 6 weeks I think.  But the symptoms get better just after a few days.  The tick titers test specifically  for antibodies.  So once a dog is exposed, they will always have the antibiodies.  During an accute illness the antibody levels may be low because they are just starting to build them up, but a few weeks later they will elevate and then drop back down to lower levels later, but they will always have the antibodies in their blood.  So we were scheduled to redraw another test in a few weeks (to see if they elevated any) , but she was put down before then.  With the lack of positive response on the Doxy, I felt the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever was a previous exposure and not what we were dealing with at the time.  Doxy is a cheap antibiotic and may be worth considering if you think Lola may have been exposed. 

And yes, my screen jumps while posting - It's the longs posts that do that.  Hence the typos...LOL

[Lolasmom]

Lola is breathing much better this morning. Still rapid but not as bad as she has been.  I am actually seeing her lungs expand.  I hope this  is good news.  I gave her a clove of garlic with her food last night.  My vet said it can help them fight against all kinds of bacteria, viruses and fungi (esp. respitory), plus it boosts their immune system.  He said it wouldn't hurt to try since she was eating.  I'm not much into vitamins and homopathic stuff. But I do see a difference today. He mentioned a raw diet to help boost her immune too.  She had rare hamburger last night.  That just seems yucky to me.

Wilson3: They do the first test which is an antigen test to determine that they are heartworm positive.  Then they do a second test to determine if there are microfilaria and the concentration of them.  This helps stage it.  Then they do an x ray of the heart and lungs to further stage the disease.  Her heart was slightly enlarged and no evidence of lung infiltration or damage.  Plus she was not showing any symptoms.  Thus they determined she was stage 1.  But when they took the x ray they notice something else at the top of her lung that was not heartworm related, so they wanted to wait on treatment until they resolved this problem.  When they go through treatment it is important that they stay calm and do not run or get their hearts going.  As the worms die the body  absorbs them but if they get their hearts going it can cause a pulminary embolism.  My vet told me yesterday that they would start treating her with Doxicycline(sp) antibiotic if she responds to the Intra.  The Doxicy weaken and kills the walchobia which is an parasite or organism that lives in the heartworm itself.  This weakens the heartworm and makes it easier to kill.  The Heartworm Society actually encourages this for a month or two before treatment.  Then they do one shot of the meds which kills about 50% of the worms and then two more shots 24 hrs apart one month later.  Then they kill the microfilaria with heartguard.  You can also do a slow kill method with Doxy and weekly heartguard.  But you have to make sure they don't get excited for over a year.  Ultimately, it is probably a greater risk.  Initially, I was terrified about the heartworms and the treatment.  But I have talked to 2 vets and PAWS about it and its dangerous but rarely fatal anymore if they are not already compromised.  The second vet told me he has treated a number of dogs who have came in in late stage and even a couple in coma successfully.  Apparently, it takes a   really long time for heartworms to progress.  My vet told me that he would keep Lola for the first 5-7 days after each injection which are the most dangerous periods (just to ease my mind).  But they wont start treatment while she is still compromised.  Incidently, the company that make the treatment is the same company that makes Heartguard.  Sadie and my vet have told me that the makers of Heartguard will pick up the cost of the treatment if I make a big issuee about it.  I'm glad to hear that because the treatment is really expensive (quoted approx. $600.00).

[Lolasmom]

Hi Sadie123,

No, I don't use any mothballs.  Poisoning was my very first thought when she started the drooling.  We went through the house and our property looking for anything, but didn't find anything.  Besides, I think she would be gone by now. 

My vet said that he thought he had already tested her for these but told me that he would check her records and let me know when we came in today.  He said the Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever was common here but he had never seen symptoms like Lolas in any dog with it or the same lung pattern as she had. 

We have looked at everything from Cervical Prolapse to Hiatal Hernia with aspiration pneumonia.  But when she had the last x-ray my vet said this is either lung cancer or Blasto.  This was the first time he had ever said flat out this could be anything specific.  I have spent over $1500.00 since 11/8 just trying to find out whats wrong with her. 

Right now I think my vet is thinking that either its cancer or her thoratic lymph node was responding to the Blasto which was making her drool.  The x ray for the heartworms just happened to see something in her lung.  Maybe it was the lymph node pressing on the esophagus like the radiologist from Auburn had thought.  The Doxymethasone was administered to reduce the inflamation in the lymph.  It worked because the drooling stopped but the lungs became infiltrated with something.  My understanding is that Blasto has an incubation period in the body before it starts to infect and that it somehow transforms during this incubation period.  Maybe Lolas lymph was responding to the Blasto through this transformation.  Maybe because I was already aware of this thing in her lung plus whatching for potential edemia from the steriods (which she got) we caught this in the knick of time (before she stopped eating).  Or maybe it is Lung cancer. 

Her appitite is still good.  When we started the treatment my vet said "I think if we can keep her eating we have a chance".  He was encouraged by that yesterday.  When he took the last x-ray and brought me in to show it to me, Lola followed behind me tail waggin thee whole way.  And he said he couldn't believe she was standing let alone trotting behind us like she was.  I don't know.

Did Sadie respond to the medication?  I mean, did she have any respitory response?  .

I want to thank you so much for all the input you have given me.  I am SO SORRY about Saddie, she was a beautiful dog.  .   

[Sadie123]

About Sadie's response to the meds...Let me lay out a picture for you:

Sadie started coughing around Halloween.  Just a few times a day and it was a very mild, dry cough.  I wasn't even concerned.  I thought perhaps a little Kennel cough.  Her breathing was not labored at all.  I was a little more shallow and rapid, but not enough for me to even notice it.  Looking back, I can tell now that something had changed because I noticed she wasn't getting up on the sofa very much anymore.  She seemed to prefer the floor.  On Nov. 10th I brought her into the vet because she still had the cough AND then she was turning down people food.  The turning down people food is what made it click that something was wrong with her.  She never really looked very ill to me.  The vet who saw her was telling me about respiratory viruses and I could tell he was considering kennel cough as well.  He mentioned maybe taking an x-ray but wasn't very serious about it because she looked so good.  I told him to go ahead with it just for peace of mind.  That's when it all started.  Her lungs were filled up with white on the x-rays.  I was not expecting that, and neither was the vet.  He told me right then it was either blasto or cancer.  He really thought it was blaso because she looked so healthy.  He could not feel any tumors on her physical exam.  So that day we started the antifungals along with Doxycycline.  He said to give the Doxy just in case the had some sort of bacterial infection in her lungs.  She had a fever that day at the vets.  He took a urine specimen and sent it off to Mira Vista.  We went home and I wasn't very worried.  I had no idea how bad blasto could get at that point.  After I did the research in the internet, I was a little scared and worried about her.  This was on a Wednesday.  

That night her appetite still declined a little. She was turning down some treats, which she never did.  Then that night, Tuesday night she jumped up onto the sofa and that was the first time I had ever seen her with labored breathing.  We went to bed and she did the same thing when she jumped up on the bed.  Labored breathing, which settled down after a little while.  I was nervous enough to get her into the emergency vet that night.  But by the time I drove her there, she seemed ok.  Breathing was shallow and rapid, but not really labored. She was 12 hours on fluconazole and doxy by that point.  They kept her overnight just to watch her.  I picked her up early the next morning and had to take her back to my regular vet.  She seemed ok that morning, but I could tell she was ill because when she came out to me she didn't even jump up on me like she usually does.  She just wagged her tail.  This is now Thursday  morning.  

We got in to her reg vet on Thursday morning and this is the first time he saw her.  The vet we saw on Wednesday was another vet at the same practice, but my reg vet is off on Wednesdays.  My reg vet got a run down of the past 24 hrs and looked at her and then looked at me and told me the next 7-10 days would be difficult and that she might not make it.  But if she pulled through the next week, he felt she had a chance to beat the blast.  (now we are assuming as this point that it was blasto).  He gave me his cell number to keep in touch over the weekend and told me it was prayers and luck that we needed.  She looked that bad just 24 hrs after starting meds and our initial vet visit.  I took her home and she seemed to hold her own all day Thurs and Fri.  BUT Friday night she took a turn for the worse.  She jumped up on the sofa and labored breathing started again.  BY the time we went to bed it was getting really bad.   I almost brought her back into the emergency vet that night, but I decided against it.  I thought for sure she was not going to make it through the night.  I didn't want to stress her any more than she already was.  It was so late and my vet had turned his cell phone off for the night.  I went into my medicine cabinet and found some prednisone.  I gave her some and layed with her and hugged her all night.  By the morning she seemed a little better.  When I woke up I was suprised and excited that she had made it thought the night.  (it was Friday when we got back the negative blasto test and knew that she had low platelets and anemia, but he wanted to know if she could have been bitten by a tick and I told him yes I had pulled one off of her in the early summer).

Now it's Saturday morning.  My vet called me back and we talked.  He told me to keep her on the steriods since they seemed to help and she had gotten so bad.  We were 3 days on antifungals and antibiotics.  Saturday afternoon she started eating again.  She looked so good.  My vet called to check on her and he was excited to hear about her progress.  He told me then that he thought she was responding to the doxycycline and that he really thought there was a chance she could have had Ehrlichia.  Her positive response was at the same time you would have expected to see one if it were a tick bite.  He told me to have her back in on Monday and we would test for it.  He thought she looked better by Monday.  We continued to have rapid shallow breathing all the time by this point.  It was labored off and on when she jumped up on the sofa.  About a week later we had more episodes of the labored breathing.  The next Saturday she had a rough day but got better by the night.  Sunday day was good too, but Sunday night she wasn't doing well at all.  SHe didn't sleep much.  She drank tons of water (a side effect of the steroids and the fluconazole).  Everytime she layed down she was breathing labored.  We were staying in the living room by this point.  I quit sleeping in the bed because it was too hard for her to get up there.  She didn't get onto the sofa but once or twice that last week.  But Sunday night she had trouble just laying downa at all.  I couldn't see her go through that any longer.  With the negative blasto test - the blood work looking more and more like cancer - the negative response to tick borne illness treatment (doxy) I just knew in my heart it was cancer.  Even though we had done an ultrasound just 5 days before and found no obvious tumors I still knew in my gut.  We tried everything and treated for what we thought could be treated.  But I had to let her go.  You can't ask a dog to stay here and not be able to sleep much.  It was too hard on her to just lay down.  I called my vet on Monday morning (the week of Thanksgiving).  I cried my eyes out telling him about her weekend.  He told me it was time.  He gave me the option to try high dose steriods as a last ditch effort, but I declined because I knew the belly bloat from the increased water consumption would be really hard on her.  I brought her in that day and put her down.  It was the worst day of my life.  He did a lung biopsy after he euthanized her.  He called me the Friday after Thanksgiving with the results.  It was Hemangiosarcoma.  A very agressive cancer with no cure.  There was nothing we could have done to stop it, to slow it down, or to make it go away.  Sadie never really suffered much - just the 2 bad nights and a few moments here and there.  She ate so many of her favorite people foods her last week because of the steriods that brought back her appetite.  Without them she was a sick little girl.  With them she was still a sick little girl, but she was a little more comfortable and happier.  So fromthe time we started meds until the time I put her down was 12 days.  I hope this helps you out.  

[Lolasmom]

Thank you Sadie123, 

I know it must be so hard for you to re-live this and you have no idea how much I appreciate your caring heart.   

Lola stopped jumping up on the couch too. 

We went to the vet today and he said she was looking good, but then the last time he saw her was with the edemea.  I talked me into waiting until Friday after the x-ray to do the Mira Vista test.  I sort of regret agreeing to that now.  But he said that we know the rate of change we saw in the two weeks while she was on the Dexomethasone.  If we take another x ray and we see a significant worsening in the lungs there would be no point in it the test.  If it showed little, no change or maybe some improvement then we can go ahead with the test.   He told me that Mira Vista can also determine if she is getting too little or too much Intra too.

We are going to start tapering down on the Prednisone now.  We were giving her approx. 15mg of Prednisone per day.  He gave me 10mg for the next 2 days and then 1/2 of that for 2 days following.  We'll see how she does. 

I hate this Intra because I know it makes her sick to her stomach and she has had diarhea too.  The vet said thats typical.  How do they stay on this for so long? 

I will keep you up to date on whats going on and let you know how the x rays go.  I know I don't know you, but I feel like your family. If I can ever do anything for you, just yell.  God Bless.

[Lolasmom]

Oh....he did the blood work for the tick diseases today.  Thank you so much for the tip. 

[Sadie123]

Sadie took the fluconazole, not the Itra.  But from what I've read the Itra has more side effects than the fluco.  I feel bad for you having to go through this with Lola.  But everyone else on this board has gone through the same hell at some point as well.  That's what brought everyone here.  Please keep us updated.  We are all rooting for you and Lola. Take care of yourself as well.  I know the stress is hard to deal with.  I think I inherited a few more wrinkles in the process.  Mostly from crying and not eating - getting a little dehydrated.  But it gets better each day - with time.  Maybe the wrinkles will go away, maybe not.  I wished Sadie's prognosis wasn't what it was, but I can't change what happened to her.  She will always be in my heart - I have a memorial stone coming in this week, and Barb is going to paint me a portrait of her.  She was like a child to me and the pain was unbearable her last day.  I left the vet's office almost in denial.  I got home and said to myself "I can't believe I just did that, I can't believe that she's gone forever".  But I am better now. I can talk about her and smile.  Still cry a little from time to time, especially since the hustle and bustle of Christmas is over and it's back to reality.  But I'm going to be OK.  I asked my pastor if dogs go to heaven and he told me no.  But Max Lucado, a famous Christian author, who lost his dog in Dec. said yes - he believed that they do.  So I have to hope that there will be a day when she comes running back to me for some good petting and puppy kisses.  I hope she knocks me over in heaven someday.  I would really love that.   

Oh, and when the time comes....and I hope it's not until it's supposed to be her time to go.....My vet did something different with the euthanasia.  He knew how hard it would be for me to see her die.  But I knew how much I loved her and couldn't leave her alone.  He wanted me to not stay and have those bad memories.  But I couldn't drop her off and leave her alone for her last moments either.  So he compromised with me.  He let me take her there and he came out to the car and gave her a shot to sedate her.  She fell asleep in my arms and he let me have a few moments with her and then he brought her in and euthanized her immediately.  I didn't have to go in crying and she didn't know she was even there.  Her last memory was riding in the car with me and falling asleep in my arms.  I liked that better than having her have to go back in again - where she was nervous and scared. 

And I'm getting my son a new puppy for his birthday in Febuary.  It's bittersweet, but I will be ready by then - I think.

[Lolasmom]

Oh...I wanted to tell you about this....

I was asking her vet about the Dexomethasone and he said he was using it as an immunosuppressant but in doseages used for anti inflamitory response (which is less than what they use for immunosuppressant therapy)

Lola was getting (2) 7.5mg of Dexomethasone 2 times a day initially.  Then (2) 2times a day, then (1) 2x a day, then (1) one time a day and then (1) every other day.   Well 7.5 mg of Dexomethasone is about the equivalent of 50mg of  Prednisone. So at one point she was taking the equivalent of 200mg of Prednisone a day!  Plus he said that the Dexomethasone has a half life of 3 days. (after 3 days there is 1/2 is much in your body, after another 3 days there is half as much as that, etc....)  Prednisone has a 4 hr half life.  

If I would have known this I don't think I would have ever allowed this.  

I think I read that you were a nurse?  I was wondering, do you think my vet is right in assuming that we know the rate the (Blasto, Cancer, ) took over her lungs? Even if her immune systems was being suppressed by the Dexomethasone at the time?  

[Lolasmom]

Oh my..... this site is so heartbreaking.  But thats such a beautiful way to do it.  Sadie was a very, very lucky dog.  I could only imagine how hard that was.  But she is not suffering now.  Thats all I fear is that Lola will begin to suffer.  I don't want that.  I don't think she is suffering yet.  She can sleep and I don't think her breathing is labored anymore (not since the edema).  But I hope I can find the courage you had if it comes to that. 

PS: I AM CERTAIN THAT DOGS GO TO HEAVEN.  If they didn't it wouldn't be heaven.  God bless you. 

[Sadie123]

That's out of my league.  I am an ER nurse, so for the past 10 yrs I have focused on treating emergencies and have forgotten much about long term care and therapy.  I don't know much about using Dex for immunosuppressant except for that "it is used for treatment of some types of cancers, and it is also used for anti-inflammatory purposes".  With Lola's first symptoms being drooling, I would suspect that something was pushing on her esophagus or trachea.  Something was making her not want to or be able to swallow.  At one point I could tell that Sadie seemed like it hurt her to chew.  She just ate differently.  I can't explain it, but I have seen her eat for years, and this chewing action was different.  Perhaps a lymph node was swollen, making it painful when moving the jawbone or submandibular joint?  Maybe it was a cancer tumor?  I don't know.  But something hurt her.  But that only lasted a day.  I never noticed it anymore.  She started swallowing food whole again - like her usual self.  I am not good with telling when A lymph node is swollen, but I can tell you it is painful.  We have people in the ER all the time with them and they refuse to turn their head and they tell me it hurts to swallow - but they describe it as different than a sore throat.  So perhaps the drooling was related to a lymph node response to whatever it is she has and the Dex took care of that inflammation.   It is hard to tell until you get her completely off of the steriods and see how she does.  It's difficult....I remember the agony so very well.  Hang in there!!  One day at a time.   

I have absolutely no idea how long it takes for blasto to take over the lung tissue.  I can imagine that it could happen in a very short amount of time.  I also think that the type of cancer that Sadie had could take over lung tissue very quickly also.  Two and a half months before she started coughing she had her yearly checkup, and I always did the extra bloodwork because, well she's a dog and can't talk.  And her checkup and bloodwork were completely normal.  This hemangiosarcoma just came on so fast.  Sadie's 2nd blood test during her illness showed a spike in white blood cells.....I have no idea what that was all about. 

[Lolasmom]

Humm...yes my vet told me that small cell cancer (which I think is the same as Hemo) can come on very quickly.  I guess, I am trying to find information that just isn't there.   I am trying to stay up beat, but the wrinkles are setting into my face too.  My husband says, "when its her time, its her time and all your worrying and crying isn't gonna change that".  I know he's right and I know its scares her.  I guess I just have to take it one day at a time and make sure that she knows how much I love her.

I know everyone one this board has gone through the same thing.  If this is Blasto, its a horrible thing. I can't beleive how unknown this terrible disease is. 

I'm glad to hear you are going to get another puppy.  How blessed that puppy will be!